Same-sex marriage and the church

**PoppyHoney** · 12-06-2012, 04:44pm

It would be the Church's business if marriage was a specifically religious institution - baptism for example (not that I can think of a comparable example for baptism, but YKWIM), but it isn't.

I'm with the people who can't believe that God would love some any less, never mind punish them, for being gay (or black, or female, etc). That just doesn't match with the God I believe in.

I'm a Christian, and I support gay marriage. I also think Rowan Williams needs to wind his neck in, but he is known for sticking it out in inappropriate ways b

**DillyDally** · 12-06-2012, 04:47pm

Originally Posted by *Holly*

A civil ceremony and a civil partnership aren't the same thing as far as I know. Same sex couples can only have a civil partnership rather than a civil ceremony.

No, they aren't, that's true. A same sex couple can only have a civil partnership, and a different sex couple can only have a civil wedding. That's the point, there has been a move that same sex couples should be able to have a civil wedding, so they are married, rather than just in a civil partnership.

**Bop** · 12-06-2012, 05:02pm

I am a Christian and I can see both sides of the Christian argument for and against homosexuality - one is based on the Bible and the other on the fact that Jesus loved everyone.

For me personally its not an issue I spend a lot of time thinking about - FWIW I accept everyone as they are. There is far more to being a Christian than this one issue...

I must admit I am a bit confused by the CoE stance on this (and have to admit I haven't read all the stuff out there on it). I can understand an objection if they were being told they had to perform same sex marriages, but I presume they would be able to decline to perform a ceremony in the same way that some churches refuse to marry divorcees.

I am saddened that this issue (that even divides Chrsitians) is the sole focus of any media attention on the churcch/Christianity, especially as most major religions take a similar stance.

Bop

**LiLi** · 12-06-2012, 05:05pm

It just makes me so sad, really. There is so much hatred in this world, so how can anyone oppose two people declaring their love for each other?

**Damsella** · 12-06-2012, 05:05pm

But the CofE has made it news, by objecting to same sex couples being abled to get married, and then perhaps challenging the church's stance in the European Court of Human Rights.

I never understand the argument that "the Bible" is against same sex marriage. It's against a lot of things that get done all the time, why just pick on that one? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose as it suits you. Either "the Bible" is right, or it's not. Anyway, the bible is just load of opinions.

And I really don't understand the CofE's stance that allowing same sex marriage will undermine the institution of marriage. How, exactly?

**Jubjub** · 12-06-2012, 05:11pm

Originally Posted by Damsella

I never understand the argument that "the Bible" is against same sex marriage. It's against a lot of things that get done all the time, why just pick on that one? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose.

I totally agree. Either take it as a literal rule book, or say it's all unsound. Why single out homosexuals, when the bible also says blind, lame and disfigured people shouldn't be allowed to go to an altar of God (and therefore shouldn't be able to get married)?

**PoppyHoney** · 12-06-2012, 05:17pm

Originally Posted by Damsella

I never understand the argument that "the Bible" is against same sex marriage. It's against a lot of things that get done all the time, why just pick on that one? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose as it suits you. Either "the Bible" is right, or it's not. Anyway, the bible is just load of opinions.

Exactly - there's all sorts of weird stuff in the Bible, and it quite often contradicts itself anyway.

Even so, we're not talking about religious gay marriage here anyway! If you're taking the line (as Rowan Williams is, at heart) that marriages not made and blessed in the church according to church rules and guidelines are not 'proper' then what about civil marriages? What about people who don't want children? Should they not be allowed to get married either?

**Bop** · 12-06-2012, 05:25pm

Originally Posted by Damsella

I never understand the argument that "the Bible" is against same sex marriage. It's against a lot of things that get done all the time, why just pick on that one? You shouldn't be able to pick and choose as it suits you. Either "the Bible" is right, or it's not. Anyway, the bible is just load of opinions.

The Bible argument is quite long and I'll try to briefly summarise it here....
- Most Christians regard the Bible as God's word to us, albeit written down and complied by man. It is viewed as the ultimate source on how to live a Christian life.
- The Old Testament (OT - the first part of the Bible) was written before Jesus and lays down Jewish Law.
- The New Testament (NT) supercedes it and reflects the teachings of Jesus and subsequent apostles.
- In terms of what applies today, the NT overrides the OT and the teachings of Jesus himself override any other teaching.
- The OT and some parts of the NT expressly forbid homosexuality, but Jesus himself didn't comment on it.

On the other hand Jesus loved and accepted everyone - and many Christians argue that means we should love and accept everyone.

For me personally I believe we should love and accept everyone and maybe in time we will see how this is consistent with Bible teaching (after all the Bible has previously been used to justify slavery and opposition to women preachers).

Bop

**bubbasweet** · 12-06-2012, 05:27pm

Originally Posted by PoppyHoney

Exactly - there's all sorts of weird stuff in the Bible, and it quite often contradicts itself anyway.

Even so, we're not talking about religious gay marriage here anyway! If you're taking the line (as Rowan Williams is, at heart) that marriages not made and blessed in the church according to church rules and guidelines are not 'proper' then what about civil marriages? What about people who don't want children? Should they not be allowed to get married either?

Their argument is hugely flawed...

**Jubjub** · 12-06-2012, 05:48pm

Originally Posted by Bop

- The New Testament (NT) supercedes it and reflects the teachings of Jesus and subsequent apostles.
- The OT and some parts of the NT expressly forbid homosexuality, but Jesus himself didn't comment on it.

On the other hand Jesus loved and accepted everyone - and many Christians argue that means we should love and accept everyone.

It's all rather contradictory, isn't it, the reasoning behind deciding what rules from the bible need to be adhered to?

Either the NT reflects the teachings of Jesus and Christians should therefore deduce that Jesus was expressly against homosexuality and follow suit, or the NT doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Jesus's teachings and therefore can be ignored like the OT and Christians can let gays do whatever the dickens they want because Jesus was never documented as being uncool with them.