Jamie Oliver's School Dinners !

[Angel]

Very interested to see the government have finally relented over the pressure to making school dinners better for kids. Not sure how it will go down with the kids though.

It can only be for the best, I remember school dinners when I was at school were rank and that was a private school ! Most of us used to take in packed lunches as the food was so awful.

My DH is a teacher and his school have already banned fizzy drinks etc from vending machines and found the kids behavious and attention span has improved.

Interesting to see how the plan on funding this and how they stop the kids sloping off down the chippy at lunchtime !

The story is http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4995268.stm

[Helsbells]

My DH is a teacher and his school have already banned fizzy drinks etc from vending machines and found the kids behavious and attention span has improved.



My school banned them nearly 2 years ago and issued everyone with a water bottle. They are encouraged to drink throughout the day. They are only allowed to bring fruit or buy a slice of toast at break time.
However, we cannot control what goes into packed lunch boxes and I am frequently appalled at the sight of children eating only crisps and chocolate for lunch or plastic cheese etc.
As much as we try to educate the children about healthy eating, the change must come from the parents as it is them that provide these foods for their children.
Even if schools cannot serve 'unhealthy food' it will not stop the other children from bringing it.

It's a hard one this but we really need to work on the parents imo.

[Narcissa Malfoy]

It's a hard one this but we really need to work on the parents imo.

:nod: This is so true. The whole family needs to be committed to eating well for this to work.

If parents are eating healthily then it is easier to have the children follow from example.

[redhed]

Um.

(Actually, thinking about it, that is what I always say at the start of a post if I disagree with the OP!)

It's a great thing in theory - but I know from lurking on a couple of Autistic Spectrum forums it's been an absolute disaster for them - ASD kids often have major eating issues which are to do with texture or with unfamiliar foods, which are a proper, documented part of the condition and have nothing to do with the usual faddy kid eating problems. Getting these kids to eat anything other than eg chickenburgers or crisps is near to impossible, and schools are suddenly converting to eating plans where the only things they will eat are banned, with no exceptions. They're being forced onto pack lunches (and these are kids that may have never eaten a sandwich, so effectively what they are getting is cold chickenburgers and crisps) because Jamie-style political correctness has taken over the kitchen and so best way to a "proper" diet is to throw out everything Jamie doesn't approve of. If that means some kids don't eat at all - tough.

All Hail Jamie. :rolleyes:

As if these families didn't have enough to cope with as it is.

[Angel]

I totally see your point of view redhed and how potentially difficult it could be.

I don't know what the answer is but surely some provision would have to be made ?

[Teresa]

I see your point of view redhead and hadn't really thought about that before.

I do think though that it is a good idea in principle where children in mainstream schools can and should eat sensibly.

I do think a lot of it stems from the parents though and if the child eats rubbish at home then they won't be much better off. If they aren't getting what they want at school, I suspect that a lot of parents will send them in with packed lunches full of rubbish instead.

The parents need to set a good example when it comes to healthy eating and it shouldn't all be left up to the schools.

[Helsbells]

Surely we make changes for the greater good? I appreciate that there will be chidren that this will be difficult for but if the changes mean that the majority of children are being encouraged to eat more healthily well surely that is going to make a huge difference to the long term health of the nation and is therefore, a good thing.

I thought about all of these comments for a while last night...for children to only eat certain foods means they must have been given them and exposed to them in the first place and this comes from parents which is what my original point was.

I understand that some AS children have problems with food but not all of them do and they will only account for a very small number overall. I'm sure that allowances could be made but even these children should be (and with help could be?) eating healthily.

I personally think that we should be more outraged at the junk/rubbish that our children have been given in the past than the more healthy options that we are seeing a return of.

[redhed]

Surely we make changes for the greater good? I appreciate that there will be chidren that this will be difficult for but if the changes mean that the majority of children are being encouraged to eat more healthily well surely that is going to make a huge difference to the long term health of the nation and is therefore, a good thing.

I'd disagree passionately that collateral damage to Special Needs kids is OK as long as the "normal" kids are better off as a result.

If (obviously would never happen, but if..) Helena ever was in a mainstream school, does that mean they should force her to eat dairy and tomatoes (in 99% of Jamie's cooking, the man drives me mad, has he never heard of allergies?) which will give her brain damage, rather than set a bad example to the other kids? Because that's the level of argument that is being used in schools at the moment, that kids with Autism (who often, for instance, have Sensory Integration issues which means that eating a particular texture can be to them like eating broken glass) have to follow the same diet as the rest of the kids so it's easier to force the rest of them to eat things they don't like. It's unbelievably cruel and stupid, but that's what happens to you when you have an "invisible" disability.

I don't know what the incidence of eating problems in ASD kids is - I know from ASD forums that it comes up time and time again so it must be fairly high. Though of course you are right, there will be kids in there with eating problems that are purely behavioural. The problem there is that changing ASD behaviour can be incredibly difficult because you lack all the usual social levers. Helena (who will probably get an ASD diagnosis eventually though it's the least of her problems atm) is very hard to manage; normally with a toddler you'd ignore her - withdrawing or giving attention and praise being the ultimate behaviour modifier. But Helena doesn't want my attention - has no interest in it and only peripheral interest in me or other people. And reasoning with her or saying "no" doesn't work - she quite possibly understands, but doesn't have the social concepts that would make her interested in what another person wants, which is largely irrelevant to her. So if one day she decides not to eat a particular food - there's very little I can do about it other than starve her out. Or perhaps I should hit her? Yes, that might work. But fortunately, they're not currently allowed to do that in schools. So they're starving them instead.

I don't know if you've seen autism every day (http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/autism_every_day.php) which, although American is interesting, I think.

[katkinn]

Redhed - do you know the percentage of children with ASD in the state school system? (genuine question - personally I have absolutely no idea)

[Narcissa Malfoy]

Redhed,

I have a friend whose son has aspergers syndrome and he will only eat "white" food. So that is bread, thin chips, potato waffles, etc.

However what is infuriating her at the moment is that he will eat sweets and chocolates of any colour and yet will not eat fruits etc of that same colour.

Sorry that this is deviating a bit from the thread but is there anything that you could recommend to me that I could pass on to her to try to help him to try more "real" foods?

I must admit when I was thinking about school dinners I didn't think about special needs.:oops: I know that for allergies arrangements are made - can the same not be done for children with other needs too?

[redhed]

Not precisely. I know the rate of children with "Autism" which I guess is defined as significant impairment in the full triad is 1 in 110. So the number of kids with that or HFA (high functioning Autism) or Aspergers' etc must be quite a bit higher. I'd guess one per class though Azana may have a better idea.

There's a campaign here (http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=253&a=10058) to try and address the problem because the overwhelming majority of children with Autism are being forced into mainstream schooling to save money; because many of them have OK IQ and their problems manifest as behavioural issues (ie inability to cope with change, or crowded classrooms or an overwhelming compulsion to turn lights on and off etc) the LEA can get away with putting them in a mainstream school and then excluding them for "bad" behaviour rather than spend money on proper support. That's not to say that all ASD kids should be in special schools - but increasingly it's clear that many of them can't cope in mainstream without a huge amount of support, which they're not getting.

And then to cap it all you get some sanctimonious cartoon cockney taking their chicken burgers away.

Sorry. I'm actually pro the idea of the campaign - it just cheeses me off that it's imposed on everybody without any consideration of circumstances, and that's largely because Jamie's PR machine has done such a good job that schools are just desparate to be seen to comply.

Narcissa - I don't know the answer & I suspect there's no easy one. I don't know how kids with Aspergers' react to Social Stories, for instance? She could try posting on a specific board: there's one called "ASD friendly" which seems to be both busy and supportive.

[Helsbells]

I know that for allergies arrangements are made - can the same not be done for children with other needs too?
This is the point I was trying to make.

I don't want to argue with anyone and when I read that reply I was really upset. I nearly didn't reply because I don't want to get into a debate. However I feel that my comments have been taken out of context. I have never said that as long as 'normal' kids are ok than everyone else just has to fit in.

This started off as a thread about healthy eating in schools. I would hope that no-one would deny that this is a good thing. I did say that exceptions should/could be made as would happen for anyone with special food requirements. Of course no-one should be given food that would make them ill and I in no way stated that they should be given them.

As far as I know, the new guidelines for healthy eating in schools involve reducing the fat and salt content in the foods served to children. They will also be given at least 2 portions of fruit and veg. This has to be a positive step towards making us a healthier nation.

I've tried to find statistics on ASD children as it seems to have become a talking point: as of January 2005 there were 8190 at school action+ and 26,730 with a statement of SEN in ALL schools (mainstream and special) with ASD. I can't find a figure for the total number of school children in the country right now to find the proportion out of the whole. (this data is from department of education statistics). I know that there is only 1 child out of 350 at my school with ASD so don't think it's as many as one per class but don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong on this.

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule and I accept that, but I do have strong feelings about the food that children eat at school as there is lots of evidence that what they eat and drink affects the way in which they learn and behave. For some children, their school dinner may be the only proper meal they get and we have a responsibility to ensure that what they do get is healthy.

I am sure that schools will be able (and should be able) to take account of special dietary requirements.

OK - rant over!

[redhed]

Hang on - got to get Woo II fed, bathed and to bed - don't want you to think you've said all that to thin air!

Will be back!

[redhed]

Hi Hels;

I took ages yesterday typing up a long and (hopefully) considered response, and then DH (whose laptop is at the menders and spent most of last night on my laptop) deleted it. And now I've got to go out all day.

I'm hideously late now & will try to remember some of what I typed later - but I do have time to say I'm not having a go at you - what I am having a go at is some of the things that go wrong as a result of a) the disaster that is "inclusion" and b) a government that sets school policy as a knee-jerk reaction to cynical manipulation of the media.

The whole SN thing is getting to me more than usual at the moment; yesterday we discovered that Helena has started self-harming. And my SN Nanny got a call to say that her previous charge has died in hospital. So things a bit poo, all in all.

[Helsbells]

Maybe I just took your comments a bit too personally.

I understand your concerns about inclusion - you may have gathered that I'm a teacher and ever since I started teaching I have questioned 'inclusion'. We have a Moderate Learning Difficulty (MLD) Unit at our school. These children are taught partly as a group and also in the mainstream classes. For some it works well, however for others it is a disaster and often they end up being internally or externally excluded. I question whether we are doing more harm than good to the latter who would probably be more suited to a different educational environment. Every activity is differentiated so that they can try to access the lesson and yet still little progress is made, often because these children need to learn in a different way to the one that we are able to provide.

As for the way in which the government changes schools policy - isn't that the way in which all policy is changed? We could get all deep here but I have questioned who actually controls the country for a long time and fact is, it is the media. I know you feel that they're jumping on a bandwagon and that's true but changing the quality of food in schools has been long overdue. It's unbelievable that it got so bad in the first place - I guess you can blame privatisation and profiteering for that.

I am totally sympathetic to your concerns for children with SN. I know you have problems with food - I do too - I'm lactose intolerant and allergic to eggs. My OH is allergic to nuts and my LO is allergic to cow's milk protein so all in all we're a difficult bunch to feed. Most of our food is cooked from scratch so we know what is in it and this is where school dinners have gone wrong (imo) in that we don't know what's in the food that we're giving to our children. If schools know about dietary requirements, they can address them appropriately. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish child to be given pork, I wouldn't expect a child who can't eat dairy to be made to eat it.

I hope you have a good day and sorry to hear about your problems with Helena.

Helen

[Angel]

The whole SN thing is getting to me more than usual at the moment; yesterday we discovered that Helena has started self-harming. And my SN Nanny got a call to say that her previous charge has died in hospital. So things a bit poo, all in all.

:hugs:

[Narcissa Malfoy]

Narcissa - I don't know the answer & I suspect there's no easy one. I don't know how kids with Aspergers' react to Social Stories, for instance? She could try posting on a specific board: there's one called "ASD friendly" which seems to be both busy and supportive.

:higgies: thanks for that red - I will pass that on to her.:thumb:

[Narcissa Malfoy]

The whole SN thing is getting to me more than usual at the moment; yesterday we discovered that Helena has started self-harming. And my SN Nanny got a call to say that her previous charge has died in hospital. So things a bit poo, all in all.

:higgies: Sorry to hear that redhed.

[Narcissa Malfoy]

helsbels - some fab points there! :thumb: I agree - all needs need to be addressed in schools.

[Nics]

I think one good point has been raised here and that is this government has tried to *mainstream* all children to the detriment of all children I think, *Normal kids* (using reds terminology) now have disruption in class by children that cant cope, and children that cant cope are being forced into mainstream education when clearly they need specialised schools and attention.

..anyway a completely different debate me thinks!!

[Devil Girl]

The whole SN thing is getting to me more than usual at the moment; yesterday we discovered that Helena has started self-harming. And my SN Nanny got a call to say that her previous charge has died in hospital. So things a bit poo, all in all.

:higgies: :flowers: :higgies: