Baby Killed by Rottweilers [Archive]

Tekkencat

24-09-2006, 01:14pm

That is terrible.I cannot imagine how her family are feeling. However, as the owner of a Rottweiler, I expect I will now come in for some (more) abuse. When will people realise that ANY dog can be dangerous, and should always, always be supervised with children?

I too have got a rottie and my thoughts are with the family involved but as LM has said ANY dog can be savage - my ear was almost torn off by a dachhound when i was six!! now that didnt reach the papers did it??

Crazyfool

24-09-2006, 01:15pm

OMG there are no words to describe how awful this is :cry:

icclebunny

24-09-2006, 01:33pm

Im amazed that its always mentioned by breed, yet you never hear about the labradors and jack russsells and every other breed when a child is attacked or bitten. Must be purely rottweilers that are evil. Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for that families loss but those of us with rotties come under enough fire because of headlines like that which focus on the breed and not individual animal. The Sun are responsible for a lot of anti rottie comments.

Big dogs are no more of a threat to a child than a small dog

Bunny (on her soapbox, as a gun toting, tatooed rottie owner with multiple piercings)

Angie

24-09-2006, 01:40pm

The poor, poor family :no: . I can't bear to think how they feel :cry:

I've noticed a lot of anti-rottie stories in the news lately and it seems a little unfair as a lot breeds can be potentially vicious, but it's down to individual dogs.

I was a savaged by my friend's jack russell when I was 8 (she was an evil dog). I still have scars from being savaged by my mum's spaniel when I was a teen (he was generally VERYplacid but show him a hedgehog and he would morph into a psychotic demon dog). But I don't recall ever seeing these breeds ever mentioned in the papers.

Strawberry Bivi

24-09-2006, 01:43pm

This is so tragic. Just horrifying.

However, as the owner of a Rottweiler, I expect I will now come in for some (more) abuse.

I feel for you. I am sure the vast majority of rottie owners are very responsible, but unfortunately this is one of the breeds that attracts a bad element who want to project a certain image, and it gives everyone a bad name. My friend has always had GSDs and used to come in for a lot of stick over it until the rotties became more popular and their owners became public enemy no 1 instead.

The most vicious dog I have ever encountered was a westie.

lazymummy

24-09-2006, 01:44pm

Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for that families loss but those of us with rotties come under enough fire because of headlines like that which focus on the breed and not individual animal. The Sun are responsible for a lot of anti rottie comments.

Big dogs are no more of a threat to a child than a small dog

Bunny (on her soapbox, as a gun toting, tatooed rottie owner with multiple piercings)

:agree: *also a tattoed rottie owner!* :lol:

cheeky_biscuit

24-09-2006, 01:58pm

the poor family I can't imagine what they're going through.
I agree though, no baby should be left alone with ANY dog. ateotd they are going to feel threatened by a new baby if it's in their house, or even a visiting baby/child is going to confuse them.
:no:
it's really sad.

lazymummy

24-09-2006, 02:04pm

We have 2 dogs, a Rottie and a bull terrier (both *bad* dogs according to the Sun etc.) and I NEVER leave them alone with the kids. Although they are our family pets, and are used to kids, ATEOTD they are dogs=animals and we are aware of that at all times.

BigB

24-09-2006, 02:09pm

How terribly sad. I just heard it on the radio too, can't imagine what the poor family are going through.

I agree that no dogs should be left alone with children, but am also victim of the 'big dog' comments. We've always had GSDs and I've lost count of the times other dog walkers excuse their dogs for hanging on mine's throat by saying 'ahh, thats because she was attacked by a shepherd once and hasn't liked them since'. Mmm, mines been attacked by pretty much everything going and is still friendly to everyone. Still having said that, I would never ever leave him alone with my children.

August Girl

24-09-2006, 02:15pm

That is so incredibly sad, I also agree that any dog can be dangerous not just the ones that are highlighted by the press.

lazymummy

24-09-2006, 02:16pm

I agree that no dogs should be left alone with children, but am also victim of the 'big dog' comments..

I heartily agree! Both our dogs wear 'haltis' (they're like a soft strap that goes over the dog's nose to control them walking on the lead humanely, for the non-doggy people!) and I have lost count of the people who say 'Oooh look at that dangerous dog, with a muzzle on, expect it bites' No, they don't bite, but they are big, active dogs, and I want to be sure they are under my complete control when out!!! :hissyfit:

Julesb

24-09-2006, 02:39pm

[quote=icclebunny]Im amazed that its always mentioned by breed, yet you never hear about the labradors and jack russsells and every other breed when a child is attacked or bitten. Must be purely rottweilers that are evil. Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for that families loss but those of us with rotties come under enough fire because of headlines like that which focus on the breed and not individual animal. The Sun are responsible for a lot of anti rottie comments.

Big dogs are no more of a threat to a child than a small dog

Totally agree with IB

She-Ra

24-09-2006, 03:03pm

This is chilling! Be interesting to hear if the rotties were family pets, or just bought into the pub by a regular.

Whatever - it is devestating!

xx

Miss Frosty

24-09-2006, 09:57pm

OMG, what a shame for all the families involved.

MF

Petrus

24-09-2006, 10:00pm

Thats awful, the poor family....

Lyndsey

24-09-2006, 10:22pm

I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but I feel annoyed that the dogs are victimised according to their breed - it's ridiculous! Any Dog is dangerous without training (and I expect that these dogs weren't trained!), and I would never even leave a trained dog in a room alone with a baby!

So sad...:no:

WiCkEd_WeNcH

24-09-2006, 10:57pm

I feel sorry for the family, it must be awful.

But I am another big dog owner, I don't have a rottie I have a dobermann who's as soft as a soft thing BUT she is never left alone with the kids.

Most vicious dog I have come across has been a jack russel. I still have the scars on the back of my ankle where that bugger attacked me.

It's not what breed the dog is at the end of the day, it's how the dog is raised and a certain amount on the temprement of the dog, any dog

Calamity

25-09-2006, 08:11am

Such a very, very sad and pointless loss of life.

Again another (past) Rottie owner here. My parents still have one and she is thee most slobbering, stupid, bumbling canine I've ever met and I love the bones of her. My parents better get their raincoats and umbrellas at the ready. The last time there was a Rottie attack in the press they were both spat at in the street and verbally abused.

Chocolate Lips

25-09-2006, 08:18am

Big dogs are no more of a threat to a child than a small dog

Indeed, as a 2 year old I was bit badly on the wrist by a Jack Russell. It left me terrified for years.

It was a tragic thing to happen to a young baby, but from reports of people who live around that area it sounds like these dogs were well known for being vicious and people were scared to walk past them to the school nearby so it begs the question....if these dogs are known to be tempermental and vicious why would you go and look after someones pub and the dogs taking your young baby :huh:

Princess Fiona

25-09-2006, 08:30am

Oh that poor poor baby, and her poor family :sad:

I agree with the majority on here though, i'd never leave my child alone with ANY dog, you just never know do you.

Also i've been bitten by a Jack Russell, they're evil little feckes.

Teresa

25-09-2006, 08:34am

What an awful thing to happen. That is so sad.

I agree that any dog can be dangerous, no matter what their size.

gillyf

25-09-2006, 08:48am

These were guard dogs not pets. I wouldn't leave a pet unattended with a child of any age. Whilst this is truely tragic for the family one questions why the baby was with the dogs in the first place.

icclebunny

25-09-2006, 08:49am

According to reports in the news today the dogs were trained as guard dogs, not faily pets (GMTV) How they came to be alone with such a young child isnt clear but apparently investigations are continuing. Im not looking forward to the next few days of walking my barmy 2 if its going to become a torrent of abuse.

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 08:58am

I read the Sun website this morning and I see what you all mean about the coverage. The main picture was not representative of a Rottweiler in a typical pose. I feel sorry for all of you who have to walk your dogs today, I'm shocked that people are so abusive to you.

:doh: You can tell they're not very intelligent, if you suspect a dog is a trained killer being aggressive to the handler is obviously a great idea!

icclebunny

25-09-2006, 09:02am

If they wanted a typical rottie pose then I have plenty of piccies here - its very similar to a typical dobe pose. Lying on its tummy, paws pointing outward with huge puppy dog eyes just begging for an ear rub or belly scratch :lol:

Blonde Girl

25-09-2006, 09:03am

This is just heartbreaking.

And I totally agree with the points that children shouldn't be left alone with any dogs.

And yes the worst dog I have ever known was a Jack Russell cross (a breed I normally love), but he had been brought up horribly and abused so was vicious.

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 09:03am

:tongue: With a bit of drool on the owner's knee.

skylark

25-09-2006, 09:12am

I grew up with two bull terriers and a maltese poodle and the only time I was ever attacked was by the evil poodle!! I used to sit on the bullies, out my fingers in thier ears and even feed them off my plate (if my mum had given me something I didn't fancy). Both were very well trained. But the little fluffy evil maltese (can you tell I don't like them) bit me three times because it was on my mother's lap and I wanted to cuddle with her.

ETA - It just shows pure ignorance if people abuse rottie owners on the actions of these two dogs.

skylark

25-09-2006, 09:19am

I found this story heartbreaking, I just couldn't watch the news last night. My heart goes out to this family.

*Marti*

25-09-2006, 09:37am

that is terrible, now i know why i dont and dont want to let my LO out of my sight.

Muppetgal

25-09-2006, 09:43am

where the hell were the parents during this? I barely leave my 3 year old unattended in the next room (playing with toys, I always check on him every so often) why did they leave a 5 month old unattended?? At 5 months a baby can roll over, leaving all sorts of horrible possibilities, and in order for an attack to happen I assume she was left alone for more than a few seconds?

They should be charged with neglect, because truly the fault is theirs, NOT the dogs!

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 09:50am

redhed

25-09-2006, 09:50am

Is it confirmed that both parents were out of the room at the time? I'm sure that I couldn't personally restrain 2 big vicious dogs if they didn't belong to me and had their hearts set on doing something.

honeybunchbuffle

25-09-2006, 09:56am

I read on sky news that these 2 rotweillers were purely security dogs for the pub and lived outside and alledgedly they were brought into the living premises by the parents who were looking after the pub and alledgedly left unattended with the 5 month old.:-(

You can guess my thoughts:sigh:

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 10:01am

These dogs are being described as guard dogs but I don't think they can have been properly trained guard dogs. They obviously weren't kept as pets.

Pippin

25-09-2006, 10:06am

My friends little Spaniel was savaged by a rottweiler, saying that I think the owner was more responsible for the way his dog acted than the dog itself.

Muppetgal

25-09-2006, 10:07am

The baby was in a cot. The dogs should not have been anywhere near the baby.

I don't understand how you can spend 24 hours with a baby. My HV insists you take the baby to the toilet with you and you are not meant to be more than 6 feet away from the baby but I ignored that because I thought it was ridiculous. I don't have a hot meal most days as it is, if I followed her advice I would never have one.

I did take Logan into the bathroom with me, especially at that age. If I had cooking to do, cleaning etc, he had a playmat and toys that were carted from room to room so that I could watch him at the same time.

He's three next week and I STILL go to the bathroom with the door open so I can hear him. Granted he plays in a seperate room from me at times (like right now he's in the lounge while I'm in the bedroom) but we're in a TINY 2 bedroom house, so I can hear him at all times. He's not allowed in the bathroom or kitchen without me ever.

Hot meal? What's that?

Chocolate Lips

25-09-2006, 10:15am

Ahem, I am with Bivi, Isabel has always got left on her own lots while I go to the loo, put the washing on, make her lunch etc I am not going to lump her around with me everywhere I go. There is little harm that she can come to to be honest. (someone is going to come along and tell me otherwise now :rolleyes:).

What kind of pub needs two savage dogs standing guard anyway? Its amazing they get any customers.

Azana

25-09-2006, 10:20am

I wouldn't leave my 11 week old alone with her nearly 3 year old sister, let alone a dog.

Very sad story, and the mentions of Jack Russels COMPLETELY vindicates my objections to my FIL continually insisting that my nearly 3 year old shouldn't be terrified of his yappy/snappy little dog. Which he hits with a pillow apparently, so it has become viscious. Guess guard dogs are trained to be that way, so they are hardly to blame. My blood runs cold at the thought of it, that baby must have suffered horribly, awful

sugarpops

25-09-2006, 10:25am

This is terrible! poor baby:cry: , surely the parents must have known the dogs were vicious. :cry:

Pippin

25-09-2006, 10:36am

The problem about such "savage" dogs are they have been bred in the past for fighting. You are just as likely to get bitten by other dogs but when a dog which has been bred to do damage gets hold of a child or a person or another dog they will do alot more damage.

Personally I think that rather than put to sleep certain dogs because of there breed they should have there temperment tested to see if they are infact a danger. I think its really unfair to put to death etc all breeds of a certain dog and rather inefficient.

SaintSarah

25-09-2006, 11:28am

I am a dog trainer. I also own 3 dogs of my own.

I trust my dogs inplicitly - however I dont trust them 100% - its impossible to. They are dogs afterall, they are all trained and have good temperments, however they have never and will never be left alone with children.

These rotties were trained to guard, they had guarding instincts. Guarding is trained using noise, any noise slightly out of the ordinary would have been considered a threat - therefore a baby crying would have raised alarm bells - dogs are unable to tell the difference between a baby and an adult - they were doing their job, so why should they lose their lives because of it???

The parents are soley to blame for this terrible tragedy - their baby should NOT have been left alone with these dogs, or any dogs for that matter.

If my dogs ever bit someone, I would not blame them 1 jot - I would blame myself for allowing them to be in a position where they are uncomfortable enough and felt the need to protect/defend themselves.

MamaJ

25-09-2006, 12:02pm

I personally think that all people should be made to have training in caring for dogs before they are allowed to own them.....just as they should have parenting classes too but that's a whole other debate.

She-Ra

25-09-2006, 12:27pm

I know this is a toucy subject but hate seeing that it is the parents fault. They will no doubt blame themselves for the rest of their lives.
Who is to say the baby was on its own? Or that they hadn't just got the little girl to sleep, so popped her in her cot so they could nip to the loo.
Its a terrible terrible accident.
Although maybe the parents should have told their parents (pub owners) they couldnt look after the pub with a 5 month old because of the dogs!

FWIW we had a rottie from when I was 12-15. He was adorable and so cuddly, we would lay in its kennel with him and he would follow me and my sister around lovingly.
One day when my sis was getting the washing in for my mum (at 15) the dog ran over to her and but a huge chunk out of her ass. Just snapped for no reason.
Now I know people say big dogs are no more dangerous than little dogs, but a jack russell etc wouldnt have done as much damage!

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 12:33pm

I know this is a toucy subject but hate seeing that it is the parents fault. They will no doubt blame themselves for the rest of their lives.

I do understand this, they must feel awful. There was a little girl who drowned near us once and I'll always remember this woman blaming the parents straight away but it only took a couple of secons and they will have to live with it forever.

A big dog could do a lot of visible damage and produce outwardly horrific injuries with their huge bite strength but a terrier's instinct is to hold on and shake, so a small terrier is as capable of killing a child as a large powerful dog, but the injuries would be more internal. Sorry if that is too graphic.

SaintSarah

25-09-2006, 01:00pm

Now I know people say big dogs are no more dangerous than little dogs, but a jack russell etc wouldnt have done as much damage!

Not true actually - big dogs will bite and 'normally' release .....small dogs however will bite and hold, they also rag their 'victim' be it another dog or in some cases a person.

Large dogs get bad press purely because they are large - you rarely hear about the little JR who bit a child, or the yorkie that attacked another dog.

Its important to remember that these dogs were trained to guard. They were doing their job.

My dogs are not trained to guard, however their natural instinct is to guard their surroundings, be that themselves or myself or my husband. It is my job however to take that responsilibity away from them - to remind them that I can look after myself. I do this through reassurance and praise.

Irresponsible breeding, and irresponsible purchasing of dogs are also to blame, perhaps not in this case - but someone could decide tomorrow they want a dog, by the end of the day they could have one - without any knowledge of the breed they have purchased, no provisons in place - nothing.

Now, if it were children that were available that easily - if I decided now I wanted a child and were able to go and buy one there would be outcry......I know thats slightly OT but the fact is, dogs are not human, they should not be expected to know the difference between right and wrong - they only know the difference between safe and not safe and rewarding and not rewarding.

Ultimately, everyone who owns a dog or dogs should be 100% responsible for that dog and not allow them to do anything wrong, its my responsibility to keep my dogs safe and out of harm, much like it will be my responsibilty to protect and care for our children.

Pippin

25-09-2006, 01:18pm

Not true actually - big dogs will bite and 'normally' release .....small dogs however will bite and hold, they also rag their 'victim' be it another dog or in some cases a person.

Large dogs get bad press purely because they are large - you rarely hear about the little JR who bit a child, or the yorkie that attacked another dog.

Dogs(so called dangerous dogs) which have been bred for fighting/guarding etc have been bred so for there powerful jaw strength etc, for many years so they can have the most destruction bite possible. This is why they make the papers etc. When a yorkshire terrior attacks a child they are unlikely to do much damage but when a dog which has been bred for many years for its aggressiveness and jaw strength attacks a child it will always do more damage. You can't compare all large dogs to small dogs. You can't say that such "dangerous dogs" are heard about because they are large the fact is they are in the press because they do more damage. Lots of large dogs aren't known for there aggressiveness, and many small dogs (bull terriers,pit bulls etc) are thought to have an aggressive nature by the media.

"One of the problems with pit bull types is the fact that their jaws and facial muscles are so strong that they do a lot more damage when they attack than other breeds. Actually, you’re far more likely to get bitten by a crossbreed or a dog you know than a pit bull type, but the damage caused is usually relatively minor and so we don’t hear about it"
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk

Pippin

25-09-2006, 01:20pm

I heard in the paper that the two dogs were never allowed in the house :puzzled: , think theres prob more to the story tbh.

icclebunny

25-09-2006, 02:52pm

Well there's breaking news on BBSNews24 that the owner of the pub has been attacked/injured and his partner killed - apparently an unrelated attack/accident, according to the pubs owner's niece.

FWIW, Ive already had enough sh!t from people today about my dogs. I wont be looking after my Godson tomorrow either because of renewed prejudice about the breed, and I am being judged by narrowminded people who have never met my dogs - theres a few people I know today from rottie sites that have been jeered at and berated in the street just for walking their dogs. Which I suppose is better than the last time the Sun had a dig and we got spat at in the street.

and for those arguing that small dogs do little damage - have you ever seen a JRT attack? When it's jaw locks on and cannot be removed until the JRT itself decides its had enough? I suppose not.

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 02:58pm

Iccle, :hug: hold your head up high, you can't be held responsible for other people's incompetence. That's terrible about your Godson.

SaintSarah

25-09-2006, 03:00pm

:clap: Well said IB - small dogs do A LOT of damage.

Trust me, I would rather have 50 appointments with rotties than 5 with JR terriers, they flamin well hurt when they bite and as I said they rag as well. They also rarely give a warning before they bite.

Bigger dogs will give a warning signal, be it a growl or body language that they are uncomfortable - they very very rarely bite for no reason.

I have just got back from walking my 3 dogs, to be told by someone that they should all have muzzles on as they are out in a pack - at the point they did this 2 of them were sitting and waiting by my side whilst the other 1 was chasing his ball, they didnt bark and at no time did they take their eyes off of me.

Its small minded people like those I met on my walk and those that berate rottie owners that are dangerous, more so than the dogs.

She-Ra

25-09-2006, 03:04pm

Just seen the sky news update - it is very unclear yet whether the murder was related. Time will tell I should think.

the whole thing is so so sad!

Chocolate Lips

25-09-2006, 03:08pm

I know they say the attacks are not being linked to the death of the child but if it was random that would be a million to one chance?

icclebunny

25-09-2006, 03:12pm

I know they say the attacks are not being linked to the death of the child but if it was random that would be a million to one chance?

Well if it is random Im sticking a tenner of lottery tickets on for Wednesdays draw

She-Ra

25-09-2006, 03:15pm

Agreed - something has gone on thats for sure.

Pippin

25-09-2006, 03:15pm

and for those arguing that small dogs do little damage - have you ever seen a JRT attack? When it's jaw locks on and cannot be removed until the JRT itself decides its had enough? I suppose not.

There are viscous small dogs aswell as large dogs. Its not to do with the size of the breed, but how the animal has been raised IMO. There are badly behaved yorkshire terriers aswell as badly behaved rottweilers/bull terriers etc. The problem is if one of these dogs many of which have been bred for many years to be fighting dogs gets hold of a child etc, they will cause alot more damage than other breeds, this is fact.

Em29

25-09-2006, 03:16pm

As vet nurse I have worked with all different breeds and agree that ANY dog could kill a child and I would NEVER leave Ella unattended with a dog at ANY age.

I have been bitten twice, they were both German Shepherd crosses but on the whole 99% of westies were evil little sh!tes and would all have a go. Most of the Rotties were soft as butter.

Most of the dog fight injuries were from staffies and jack russels and were horrible because they will grab hold and shake their victims - makes nice deep wounds to stitch i can tell you.

This was a horrible story and made my blood run cold \when I heard it, I'm sure the parents will feel guilty for the rest of their lives.

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 03:20pm

The couple who were attacked do not have the samme names as the pub owners so it looks like it is the other set of grandparents.

Calamity

25-09-2006, 03:24pm

I read on Sky News that it was the dog owner that had been murdered but I also read that the dog owners were the dead child's grand parents..................

I'd also just like to make a little point as I've read a few times on here about Rotties being bred for fighting and guarding. I just wanted to clear up for people reading this that Rottweillers were bred as working dogs, helping on farms etc.

I think what Pipin was gettting at is that more recently a handfull of complete feckwits have been trying to breed an agressive strain of Rottie that will bark, snarl and attack intruders.

I'm not 100% sure how they do it though as all of the Rotties we've owned have been the softest, most placid, loving and on occassion, stupidest dogs I've ever been around.

For example, my parents current dog Suzie is a young female Rottie. I felt my parents should have got a cat now that they're almost in their sixties and in the back of my mind I thought they might get her rehomed so I've kept my distance from her. Thing is though, I just cannot help but fall in love with her every time I see her. And by god, she just will not stop licking me when I come to their house. She's practically sitting on my knee after five minutes :smile:

icclebunny

25-09-2006, 03:29pm

Can I make a tiny comparison of my feelings on this matter regarding the way it has been publicised? (bar the coverage by Sky News who have remained professional)

If The Sun, as an example, printed the kind of venomous stories about people of the Muslim faith in the wake of the July bombings there would be an outcry. Yet its okay for them to take issue with one breed of dog? They can say what they like with no regard as to who it upsets? They can stir up hatred without any ramifications to them or thought of responsible owners who are enduring the brunt of it?

Strawberry Bivi

25-09-2006, 03:38pm

The Sun, along with the other tabloids, is squarely aimed at the lowest common denominator. They enjoy whipping their readers up into a frenzy like this, then they'll print an article saying how terrible it is that dog owners are being victimised.

Pippin

25-09-2006, 03:53pm

I'd also just like to make a little point as I've read a few times on here about Rotties being bred for fighting and guarding. I just wanted to clear up for people reading this that Rottweillers were bred as working dogs, helping on farms etc.

I think what Pipin was gettting at is that more recently a handfull of complete feckwits have been trying to breed an agressive strain of Rottie that will bark, snarl and attack intruders.

They were bred first of all to protect livestock from wild animals aswell as herding cattle. In the 19 th Century the breed was in radical decline. In the first world war the breed established itself as a police dog/guard dog.

I believe that dogs such as rottweilers/bull terriers etc are dangerous dogs in the wrong hands. Rottweilers are popular guard dogs and some of which have not been intergrated with people properly. To say that rottweilers aren't any more dangerous than a spaniel for example I think is incorrect. They are an incredibly strong dog and they especially need an experienced and extremely mature owner.

I don't agree with killing whole breeds of certain dogs though as I've said before. It would be better to use a temperment test of some description on all dogs. Its not the breed of dog its the way its been brought up.

Devil Girl

25-09-2006, 05:46pm

Such an awful thing to happen :-(

I have had a quick look on Wikipedia for information about Rottweilers. Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler)

Tekkencat

25-09-2006, 05:58pm

I have been at work all day and unable to reply - (dont get me wrong my sympathies lie with the parents of this child - I would not wish such a terrible thing on anyone) I was greeted at work with comments of how can you have a savage dog like this with a baby and small children in the house - IB has summed my thoughts on this up perfectly and although many think that its incorrect that a smaller dog can make less damage than a rottie/doberman anything bigger than a pooch but they truely can - rotties may have a tight enough jaw grip but as i said previously my ear was almost completely torn off by a dachhound - so it is true..... I am actually Pi55ed off and frustrated at the thought of not being able to take my dog out for her evening stroll without a torrent of abuse from single minded unknowlegable numpties who seep their information from the tabloids instead of the people who KNOW these breeds (and yes I do know about them m- ive been involved with rescue rotties for a while!)

SaintSarah

25-09-2006, 06:02pm

I believe that dogs such as rottweilers/bull terriers etc are dangerous dogs in the wrong hands. Rottweilers are popular guard dogs and some of which have not been intergrated with people properly. To say that rottweilers aren't any more dangerous than a spaniel for example I think is incorrect. They are an incredibly strong dog and they especially need an experienced and extremely mature owner.

ANY dog in the wrong hands are dangerous.

Labradors are supposed to be a gentle breed, yet it was a lab that caused the lady in France to have the face transplant - yet, not much was made of that because it was a lab. I myself own labradors, mine are all soppy but as I have said I would not leave them alone with a child.

This is being blown up because of the breed of the dog, plain and simple. It would be the same if it were a Staffie, Alsation or Bull Terrier. That imho is very very wrong.

I am sorry Pippin, but you are wrong - any dog can be dangerous, any dog can kill - regardless of the breed

SaintSarah

25-09-2006, 06:03pm

lazymummy

25-09-2006, 06:07pm

This is being blown up because of the breed of the dog, plain and simple. It would be the same if it were a Staffie, Alsation or Bull Terrier. That imho is very very wrong.

I am sorry Pippin, but you are wrong - any dog can be dangerous, any dog can kill - regardless of the breed

:agree:

frog

25-09-2006, 10:18pm

ANY dog in the wrong hands are dangerous. Hear hear. Our old GSD, my cousin's rottie and doberman, all three the softest soppiest dogs you could possibly imagine. The two dogs we have now are similarly soft but I wouldn't leave them unattended with Struan for a single second. It is an incredibly tragic occurrence but leaving any animals alone with babies is asking for trouble imo.

Dancing Queen

26-09-2006, 08:02am

I can't believe the attack is unconnected, but who knows :shrug:. It was the baby's grandfather's partner who was killed, and the grandfather himself was attacked.

What a weekend for that family :no:

BBC News story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/5380346.stm)

Dancing Queen

26-09-2006, 08:06am

There's more info on the Sky News site (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13544266,00.html?f=rss).

redhed

26-09-2006, 08:09am

OK, so according to that, they were outside guard dogs, kept outside, a door was accidentally left open and nobody knew they had gained access to the building. Somehow they found their way to the baby's room.

Maybe we can all stop blaming the parents now?

Chocolate Lips

26-09-2006, 08:17am

Why does a pub need dogs on a roof anyway? What use is a guard dog up there?

redhed

26-09-2006, 08:20am

It is weird. Maybe it's an inner-city pub with no outside space and they kept the dogs on the flat roof of the extension?

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 08:21am

Who's supposed to have left the door open? Who is responsible for checking fire doors? Were they just staying in the living quarters while the owners were away? Was there someone else running the actual pub?

So many questions, and today GTV are focusing on "dangerous dogs". My dogs certainly do not appear on the list of dangerous dogs as produced by the government, theyre not a banned breed. I feel like its flashing back to the 80s when my dobermann would have been banned if the tabloids had their way

Chocolate Lips

26-09-2006, 08:30am

In most cases, its not the dogs that are dangerous, it is the fecking owners.

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 08:32am

In most cases, its not the dogs that are dangerous, it is the fecking owners.

...I certainly have more bite than my dogs, especially when narked

Pippin

26-09-2006, 09:10am

I am sorry Pippin, but you are wrong - any dog can be dangerous, any dog can kill - regardless of the breed

I have said in my previous posts that any dog who is uncorrectly cared for and brought up can be a dangerous animal. I don't think its the breeds fault but the owners and it would be wrong to put to sleep whole breeds of dogs.

Many rottweilers are used for guarding and they are work dogs who have not intergrated with people properly (like the two in question) they are a large, extremely strong dog and in the wrong hands they are extremely dangerous.

Pittbulls and alike were fighting dogs they were bred for there aggressiveness and bite strength. As the dogs trust have said:

"One of the problems with pit bull types is the fact that their jaws and facial muscles are so strong that they do a lot more damage when they attack than other breeds. Actually, you’re far more likely to get bitten by a crossbreed or a dog you know than a pit bull type, but the damage caused is usually relatively minor and so we don’t hear about it"
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk

To say that all dogs are equally dangerous when they do actually attack is madness. Personally I'd rather be attacked by a west highland white than a pitbull which is of a similar size. Certain dogs are potentially more dangerous than others in the wrong hands.

All dogs need alot of work but certain dogs are potentially more dangerous than others if they are raised wrongly.

SaintSarah

26-09-2006, 09:58am

To say that all dogs are equally dangerous when they do actually attack is madness. Personally I'd rather be attacked by a west highland white than a pitbull which is of a similar size. Certain dogs are potentially more dangerous than others in the wrong hands.

Tell you what, come to work with me for a couple of days. I see various dogs various shapes and sizes.....I have more scars from small dog bites than I do larger dogs. As I have said before large dogs warn you of their intention, small dogs dont.

Any dog that attacks a 5 month old baby will more than likely kill the baby. Fact.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:18am

Tell you what, come to work with me for a couple of days. I see various dogs various shapes and sizes.....I have more scars from small dog bites than I do larger dogs. As I have said before large dogs warn you of their intention, small dogs dont.

Any dog that attacks a 5 month old baby will more than likely kill the baby. Fact.

The problem with Rottweilers is they don't usually growl or show warning that they are going to attack. It is typical of there breed. To say that large dogs warn of there intention and small dogs don't is complete nonsense.

I don't disagree that you have probably been bitten mostly by smaller dogs what I'm saying is that certain breeds of dogs can potentially do more damage than others. Especially dogs which have been bred for some time as fighting dogs/guard dogs etc. The other problem with such "fighting dogs" (which Rottweilers have actually been used for in the past) is the fact that they seem to appeal to a proportion of society who aren't perhaps the most responsible. Many of these dogs have got perfectly good homes but there are a proprtion of people that use the dogs appearance as a status symbol and do not have the animals best interests at heart.

It is a fact that some dogs are more capable of doing damage than others.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:24am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler

The Rottweiler is not usually a barker: males are silent watchers who notice everything and are often quite stoic. Females, however, may become problem barkers in order to protect their den. In the event a dog feels threatened, they tend to go very still before attacking, and there may be no warning growl. This is one of the breed's characteristics that lends itself to the reputation of being unreliable. An observant owner, however, is usually able to recognise when the Rottie perceives a threat. When the dog barks, it is more of a sign of annoyance with external factors (car alarms or other disturbances) rather than threats.
The Rottweiler is typically a dominant dog, and they can resort to aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations. The Rottweiler's large size and incredible strength make this an important point to consider, and for this reason the Rottweiler is a breed that only experienced dog owners should consider. Rottweiler owners who don't understand the breed's nature can face significant problems in handling such dogs when they reach adulthood. Early socialisation with as many people, animals, and situations as possible is very important in order to produce a dog that is tolerant of strangers.
Aggression in Rottweilers is associated with boredom, poor handling, lack of socialisation, natural guarding tendencies and abuse.

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 10:25am

The problem with Rottweilers is they don't usually growl or show warning that they are going to attack. It is typical of there breed. .

They will growl to warn you - they will warn you long before they are going to do anything - I have worked with enough rescue rotts to know that. In fact, rotties do also "talk" which can often be confused by people who dont know the breed who asssume they are growling when they are merely expressing themselves - mine talk all the time.
If I had any doubts about the temperament of the breed or my animals then I would not have them - for anyone to generalise a breed with such negative comments beggars belief

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:30am

They will growl to warn you - they will warn you long before they are going to do anything - I have worked with enough rescue rotts to know that. In fact, rotties do also "talk" which can often be confused by people who dont know the breed who asssume they are growling when they are merely expressing themselves - mine talk all the time.
If I had any doubts about the temperament of the breed or my animals then I would not have them - for anyone to generalise a breed with such negative comments beggars belief

I have just quoted facts. I haven't been generally negative and I do not dislike the breed. These are not my words:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler

The Rottweiler is not usually a barker: males are silent watchers who notice everything and are often quite stoic. Females, however, may become problem barkers in order to protect their den. In the event a dog feels threatened, they tend to go very still before attacking, and there may be no warning growl. This is one of the breed's characteristics that lends itself to the reputation of being unreliable. An observant owner, however, is usually able to recognise when the Rottie perceives a threat. When the dog barks, it is more of a sign of annoyance with external factors (car alarms or other disturbances) rather than threats.
The Rottweiler is typically a dominant dog, and they can resort to aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations. The Rottweiler's large size and incredible strength make this an important point to consider, and for this reason the Rottweiler is a breed that only experienced dog owners should consider. Rottweiler owners who don't understand the breed's nature can face significant problems in handling such dogs when they reach adulthood. Early socialisation with as many people, animals, and situations as possible is very important in order to produce a dog that is tolerant of strangers.
Aggression in Rottweilers is associated with boredom, poor handling, lack of socialisation, natural guarding tendencies and abuse.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:31am

If I had any doubts about the temperament of the breed or my animals then I would not have them - for anyone to generalise a breed with such negative comments beggars belief

what negative comments?

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 10:33am

See any tabloid newspaper from the last week

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:36am

See any tabloid newspaper from the last week

I got the impression you were refering to my "negative comments", I was just wondering which of my comments are infact negative of the breed???

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 10:41am

Pippin

26-09-2006, 10:56am

Starting a sentance with "The problem with Rottweilers.." is rather inflamatory - other than that Im just extremely cross with the way its being publicised and the way that people take everything written in the press as Gospel without taking the time to find out the truth for themselves

Tell you what, come to work with me for a couple of days. I see various dogs various shapes and sizes.....I have more scars from small dog bites than I do larger dogs. As I have said before large dogs warn you of their intention, small dogs dont.

Any dog that attacks a 5 month old baby will more than likely kill the baby. Fact.

The problem with Rottweilers is they don't usually growl or show warning that they are going to attack. It is typical of there breed. To say that large dogs warn of there intention and small dogs don't is complete nonsense.

I was only refering to a part of the animals characteristics, which is imo widely known. I haven't been biased toward the breed and I do not dislike particular types of dogs. I'm not taking anything the press write as gospel and I'm perfectly capable of making my own opinion on the matter. If you actually look back on my posts you will notice that my opinions do not correspond with that of the press.

SaintSarah

26-09-2006, 11:08am

Pippin

26-09-2006, 11:18am

Pippin, do you have any experience of working with dogs? Or is all of the data you are posting from the internet?

What websites say and what the dogs actually do are very very very very very differnt.....

My family breed dogs. My grandad was a vet as is my uncle who owns a large chain of surgeries. Have been brought up around dogs etc although I no longer own one myself.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 12:11pm

My family breed dogs. My grandad was a vet as is my uncle who owns a large chain of surgeries. Have been brought up around dogs etc although I no longer own one myself.

Mr NC here, NC is at work and cant post!

What breed of dogs do you have experience with? you seem to be arguing with the Rotweiller owners about how our dogs behave? your source of information wikipedia isnt exact know for being factual. after all the article are submitted by people like you or I and are not checked.

While we are dealing with these dangerous breeds I vote for the complete and utter destruction of all of these vicious Dachshounds!

Md. Infant Critical After Mauling by Family Dachshund
By Colleen Jenkins
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 17, 2002; Page B03

A 6-week-old St. Mary's County boy was in critical condition yesterday after being dragged from his playpen and mauled by the family's dachshund, police said.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64465-2002Dec16)

This conversation wouldnt be going on if it had been two Border Collies, or a couple of Red Setters, but because it was Rotweillers it changes from a sad story about the loss of a child to one about how evil these dogs are and how they all should be destroyed.

SaintSarah

26-09-2006, 12:24pm

This conversation wouldnt be going on if it had been two Border Collies, or a couple of Red Setters, but because it was Rotweillers it changes from a sad story about the loss of a child to one about how evil these dogs are and how they all should be destroyed.

Absolutely totally 100% agree - well said.

Pippin, just because your family breed dogs (although you fail to say which breed...) does not make you an expert.....far from it infact. Whilst I am not saying I am an expert either my experience of working with dogs and the various courses I have taken makes me fairly knowledgeable I would like to think :wink:

Pippin

26-09-2006, 12:25pm

Mr NC here, NC is at work and cant post!

What breed of dogs do you have experience with? you seem to be arguing with the Rotweiller owners about how our dogs behave? your source of information wikipedia isnt exact know for being factual. after all the article are submitted by people like you or I and are not checked.

While we are dealing with these dangerous breeds I vote for the complete and utter destruction of all of these vicious Dachshounds!

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64465-2002Dec16)

This conversation wouldnt be going on if it had been two Border Collies, or a couple of Red Setters, but because it was Rotweillers it changes from a sad story about the loss of a child to one about how evil these dogs are and how they all should be destroyed.

Why don't you actually read my posts??? When have I said that rottweilers should all be destroyed :rolleyes:

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 12:32pm

Why don't you actually read my posts??? When have I said that rottweilers should all be destroyed :rolleyes:

Point out where I said you did, and I'll apologise. I guess you didnt actually read my post either.

:rolleyes:

Pippin

26-09-2006, 12:39pm

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 12:45pm

.....whilst referring to my posts

dont take things so personally, I was refering to the conversation as a whole, not your post specifically, hence saying the conversation and not quoting you directly.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 12:53pm

Absolutely totally 100% agree - well said.

Pippin, just because your family breed dogs (although you fail to say which breed...) does not make you an expert.....far from it infact. Whilst I am not saying I am an expert either my experience of working with dogs and the various courses I have taken makes me fairly knowledgeable I would like to think :wink:

I find it rather alarming that you are arguing with me about this. Certain dogs are more difficult than others to handle. For examply would you let a young teenager take a large rottweiler pet to the park??? They are large powerful animals the require much responsibility, they are more difficult to handle than some other breeds. Yes bred correctly they can be lovely family dogs but in the case with this baby they weren't intergrated with people, they are large and powerful dogs and in this case a danger to people in general.

It isn't a case of large dogs vs small dogs as you keep saying, bull terriers, pittbulls aren't typically known as a large dog but they have been known to cause damage in the wrong hands due to the fact they have been bred to do so. As well as certain members of society chosing such dogs as status symbols without the dogs best interests at heart.

I find your arguments completly biased. Many of the "facts" you have quoted are wrong and misleading and what I would expect from someone who doesn't actually know very much about dogs at all.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 12:55pm

dont take things so personally, I was refering to the conversation as a whole, not your post specifically, hence saying the conversation and not quoting you directly.

who were you quoting then?

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 01:07pm

Certain dogs are more difficult than others to handle. For examply would you let a young teenager take a large rottweiler pet to the park??? They are large powerful animals the require much responsibility, they are more difficult to handle than some other breeds. Yes bred correctly they can be lovely family dogs but in the case with this baby they weren't intergrated with people, they are large and powerful dogs and in this case a danger to people in general.

I wouldn't let a young teenager take ANY dog out alone!

And ANY guard dog is going to be danger-that's what a guard dog is for!!!

JustaGeek

26-09-2006, 01:10pm

Mr NC here, didnt want to post again as Ninjacat as I dont want to get her in trouble anyway...

who were you quoting then?
as I said:

I was refering to the conversation as a whole, not your post specifically, hence saying the conversation and not quoting you directly.

Now im going back to work and leaving you ladies too it!

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 01:13pm

I have managed to log in at work now thanks to password retrieval (thanks mr NC now go and do some work!!)....and to clairfy (incase anyone gets the funnys - OH was posting my words that i msn'd over) and as "I" said i dont beleive i said that you said anything of the sort

"While we are dealing with these dangerous breeds I vote for the complete and utter destruction of all of these vicious Dachshounds!"

which doesnt suggest you in the slightest - now can we get back to the debate instead of being silly and finickity as its a very very serious issue!! and i feel the lack of knowledge and or willing to listen to people who have the experinece and knowledge shocking and its just feeding the tabloids opinions

Pippin

26-09-2006, 01:23pm

I wouldn't let a young teenager take ANY dog out alone!

And ANY guard dog is going to be danger-that's what a guard dog is for!!!

Dogs which can't be trusted with people imo should not be allowed. These two animals who mauled the baby girl had obviously not been fully intergrated with people and pose a threat to other animals and people.

If an owner can't guarantee their pet is safe around other animals and people they should be held responsible. If an owner isn't mature and reponsible and knowledgable regarding there chosen breed of animal imo they are the irresponsible ones and they should be severely punished.

Certain breeds of dogs do need special care and more experienced owners its a fact, and that some breeds in the wrong hands can do more damage than others. Yes you are likely to be bitten by a certain dogs but some dogs are much more likley to have the bite they have inflicted on someone to become a fatality or serious injury. It is important for owners to be aware of what there dog could be capable of.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 01:26pm

which doesnt suggest you in the slightest - now can we get back to the debate instead of being silly and finickity as its a very very serious issue!! and i feel the lack of knowledge and or willing to listen to people who have the experinece and knowledge shocking and its just feeding the tabloids opinions

I agree you should be listening to me much more carefully :teehee:

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 01:30pm

Dogs which can't be trusted with people imo should not be allowed.

But as has been said many, many times in this thread, NO dog is ever 100% reliable!!!

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 01:34pm

I agree you should be listening to me much more carefully :teehee:

you have just proved my point about ignorance - you make me sick

Pippin

26-09-2006, 01:44pm

But as has been said many, many times in this thread, NO dog is ever 100% reliable!!!

dogs that are raised correctly are alot more reliable than one that hasn't. I'm not saying you should be able to trust a dog with a newborn baby 100% I wouldn't let my cats alone with a newborn never mind a dog. Dogs which are incorrectly raised are often a danger to the public and other animals. The owners of the two dogs in question should be severely punnished IMO. You can't guarantee a dangerous animal will never be around people and other animals (unless its locked in a cage 24/7).

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 01:45pm

I give up!

WiCkEd_WeNcH

26-09-2006, 01:48pm

dogs that are raised correctly are alot more reliable than one that hasn't. I'm not saying you should be able to trust a dog with a newborn baby 100% I wouldn't let my cats alone with a newborn never mind a dog. Dogs which are incorrectly raised are often a danger to the public and other animals. The owners of the two dogs in question should be severely punnished IMO. You can't guarantee a dangerous animal will never be around people and other animals (unless its locked in a cage 24/7).

Not just a new born baby, NO ONE should put 100% trust into a dog.

I'm not a baby and have grown up around dogs, although itrust mine and my mums dog I don't trust them 100%. At the end of the day no matter how well you train an animal they are just that, an animal with animal instincts.

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 01:51pm

Not just a new born baby, NO ONE should put 100% trust into a dog.

I'm not a baby and have grown up around dogs, although itrust mine and my mums dog I don't trust them 100%. At the end of the day no matter how well you train an animal they are just that, an animal with animal instincts.

Once again :agree: Thanks Samiseal, that's what I meant too!

Pippin

26-09-2006, 01:51pm

Not just a new born baby, NO ONE should put 100% trust into a dog.

I'm not a baby and have grown up around dogs, although itrust mine and my mums dog I don't trust them 100%. At the end of the day no matter how well you train an animal they are just that, an animal with animal instincts.

Not despuiting that I'm just saying that the way a dog is reared has a large contribution to how the animal will react in certain situations. I was said newborn baby as the tread is about a baby girl.

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 01:54pm

Not despuiting that I'm just saying that the way a dog is reared has a large contribution to how the animal will react in certain situations. I was said newborn baby as the tread is about a baby girl.

Obviously rearing has a lot to do with it-a family pet is clearly VERY different to a specifically trained guard dog.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 01:55pm

Pippin

26-09-2006, 02:05pm

Well that'll be a consolation to the parents :rolleyes:

eh? :puzzled:

The parents didn't own the animals and the fact that they got into the house was an accident. These animals were not pets and did not have much experience around people.

I'm sure the parents would prefer that legislation may be brought in place to stop another family suffering from the same fait. Rather than people commenting that a Westie can be just as dangerous as a rottie and that rotties don't need any specialised training etc than any other dog. Of course an out of control rottweiler is capable of doing more damage than a crazed yorkshire terrier its common sense for gawds sake!!! Some dogs are larger, some dogs have stronger bites all dogs are berluddy different and they cane have a variable effect if it was to attack a human or another animal.

I think common sense has been completely thrown out of the window.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 02:11pm

The more i read the more I am astounded by the blatent ignorance - or is it purely just to wind us up? Im really unsure - so many people with the correct knowledge have tried to explain but never mind there must be a ray of happiness within the ignorance

What comments have I made that are ignorant. What exactly do you disagree with? Who are you to say other peoples knowledge of the subject is much more valuable than mine.

You have previously expressed a large bias on the subject anyhoo.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 02:12pm

What comments have I made that are ignorant. What exactly do you disagree with? Who are you to say other peoples knowledge of the subject is much more valuable than mine.

You have previously expressed a large bias on the subject anyhoo.

as i say ignorance is bliss :grin: who am i - who are you? who is anyone?

Pippin

26-09-2006, 02:16pm

as i say ignorance is bliss :grin: who am i - who are you? who is anyone?

You have the cheek to call someones posts ignorant without expressing why when you have already admitted to not even reading the posts in the first place :rolleyes:

frog

26-09-2006, 02:18pm

I think both 'sides' have expressed interesting points here but, without getting into any pointless bunfights, I have to say I would probably take more heed of opinions of those with direct personal experience of the breed in question. It's like many things in life, we need extensive personal experience to be able to articulate the finer details of something :smile:

I think the general consensus that NO dog, regardless of breed, should ever be left alone with a baby is very sensible. Afterall, if those dogs had not been alone with the child this tragedy would never have happened.

WiCkEd_WeNcH

26-09-2006, 02:24pm

eh? :puzzled:

The parents didn't own the animals and the fact that they got into the house was an accident. These animals were not pets and did not have much experience around people.

But the parents decided to take the baby in the vacinity of 2 GUARD dogs. As you said yourself the animals were NOT pets and had very little experience around people.

The parents made that choice. Not that i'm saying the parents were wholey to blame but it's happened.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 02:24pm

You have the cheek to call someones posts ignorant without expressing why when you have already admitted to not even reading the posts in the first place :rolleyes:

erm ive been right here from the start thank you very much and have read all of them so shoooooo and post something worthwhile :grin: isntead of starting a slanging match with me -

cartchick

26-09-2006, 02:27pm

At the risk of upsetting anyone further - this thread is really upsetting me.

I feel for the poor baby that met a horrific death. I can't pass judgement on the parents as I don't have the full facts, but I can only begin to imagine their pain.

Whatever your feelings about dogs, a poor baby has died in awful circumstances. I feel that that has been forgotten about in this debate.

I've been trying to avoid this story in the press because it's just too awful to comprehend what happened.

I really hope I haven't upset anyone, but that's my 2p's worth.
ccxx

seashell

26-09-2006, 02:33pm

I dont have experience of dogs either as I am very scared of them:smile: - I dont trust any dog as I think Samiseal said they are an animal with animal instincts and a placid dog has been known to just flip...

I also think there have been good points made by Pippin and Ninjacat here (but i am not going to say anymore either as I am inexperienced with any kind of dog)

MamaJ

26-09-2006, 02:34pm

This seems to have deviated from a tragic story of a baby being attacked and killed to a rather nasty slanging match with both sides unable to come to an agreement so maybe it's time to agree to disagree Ladies (and Gent:wink: ).

To get back to the original story....The baby appears to have been in its crib asleep while the parents (Mum and Stepdad) were moving their things out. While furniture was being moved a firedoor was inadvertently left open and the dogs got in that way. So all in all an awful accident and no real fault lies with her devastated parents after all we all make mistakes...thankfully for most of us our mistakes don't end in tragedy.
The person that got murdered was the Mother of the babys biological father who split from the birth mother before the baby was even born so it does seem to be a tragic coincidence.

Pippin

26-09-2006, 02:45pm

erm ive been right here from the start thank you very much and have read all of them so shoooooo and post something worthwhile :grin: isntead of starting a slanging match with me -

It was you who began making comments about me actually. I did not start any slanging contest, you have repeatedly called me ignorant etc without saying why. Its all rather pathetic.

To get back to the original story....The baby appears to have been in its crib asleep while the parents (Mum and Stepdad) were moving their things out. While furniture was being moved a firedoor was inadvertently left open and the dogs got in that way. So all in all an awful accident and no real fault lies with her devastated parents after all we all make mistakes...thankfully for most of us our mistakes don't end in tragedy.

I agree MamaJ I dislike people blaming the parents. They have been through a completely devestating loss and to have people hand blame over to them for what was a tragic accident is quite alarming IMO.

But I do feel such dogs which were obviously a danger to the public (from what neighbours etc have said also) the owners of such animals should be held responsible for the attack. Then perhaps it would prevent such a thing from happening again.

frog

26-09-2006, 02:51pm

I agree MamaJ I dislike people blaming the parents. They have been through a completely devestating loss and to have people hand blame over to them for what was a tragic accident is quite alarming IMO.

But I do feel such dogs which were obviously a danger to the public (from what neighbours etc have said also) the owners of such animals should be held responsible for the attack. Then perhaps it would prevent such a thing from happening again.Don't mean to be another slinging buns :wink: but my personal view is different on this. imo the owners had put the dogs 'away' and so had acted responsibly. It isn't their fault that a door was left open. To my mind it's the fault of whoever left the door open and if that is one of the parents then so be it. If it was one of the dogs' owners who had left the door open I doubt we would be so forthcoming with 'it was an accident' :no:

Pippin

26-09-2006, 03:01pm

Don't mean to be another slinging buns :wink: but my personal view is different on this. imo the owners had put the dogs 'away' and so had acted responsibly. It isn't their fault that a door was left open. To my mind it's the fault of whoever left the door open and if that is one of the parents then so be it. If it was one of the dogs' owners who had left the door open I doubt we would be so forthcoming with 'it was an accident' :no:

The dogs then would always pose a threat. You can't realistically keep dogs away from all other people/animals. It would always be an accident waiting to happen. Why couldn't the owners have brought these animals up properly?? Intergrating them with people etc. Is it to have the animals best interest just to keep it as a guard dog. Just because an animal is to be used as a working animal it is no excuse not to bring the animal up in the correct manner.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 03:03pm

WiCkEd_WeNcH

26-09-2006, 03:04pm

Just a quick thing, what's the point of a guard dog if it's intergrated with people??? Doesn't that defeat the object f having guard dogs?

frog

26-09-2006, 03:04pm

The dogs then would always pose a threat. But surely guard dogs are supposed to pose a threat. I don't mean to come across as argumentative for the sake of it but I feel very strongly that the parents knew the risks and that combined with someone leaving the door open very much determines fault in my view.

Calamity

26-09-2006, 03:05pm

This whole thread has turned into a spat between the two of you. I'm not blaming either side as you both are entitled to your opinions.

The fact of the matter is that a baby died. The dogs who did it have been put to sleep. End of story. Can you stop dragging this out as I'm personally sick of seeing "Baby Killed by Rottweillers" at the top of the page!!

J.x

Pippin

26-09-2006, 03:07pm

we have lost sight of the issue - pippin you obviously have issues with me but lets not do it here hey - you provoked my replies so take them instead of throwing more buns into the bakery!!

oh and dont call me pathetic - :happyno:

O/T did you know more people are killed by donkeys than sharks???

comments like "you make me sick" I'm ignorant etc. If you are going to say such things atleast tell me why. You are the one trying to start a bun fight not me. You haven't actually given much of an opinion on the matter only on my posts :rolleyes: Why can't you just post about the actual thread instead of just remarks about me.

Tekkencat

26-09-2006, 03:07pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Pippin

26-09-2006, 03:11pm

But surely guard dogs are supposed to pose a threat. I don't mean to come across as argumentative for the sake of it but I feel very strongly that the parents knew the risks and that combined with someone leaving the door open very much determines fault in my view.

It may not even be the parents who had left the door open. We don't know exactly what happened. How can you make sure that all people who have access to the pub will be fully aware of the threat that the 2 dangerous dogs on the roof would pose to people. Its unrealistic IMO. You just have to look at police dogs etc to see you can have well trained working dogs.

I don't think your coming accross argumentative Frog, people will always disagree on threads etc especially on a subject like this.

cartchick

26-09-2006, 03:13pm

Can you stop dragging this out as I'm personally sick of seeing "Baby Killed by Rottweillers" at the top of the page!!

I agree. This is upsetting beyond belief. Please stop.

She-Ra

26-09-2006, 04:20pm

Agree with cartchick.

This isnt about feeling sorry for the prejucide which rottie owners are going to encounter - it is about a young baby who has been killed.

SaintSarah

26-09-2006, 04:46pm

I find your arguments completly biased. Many of the "facts" you have quoted are wrong and misleading and what I would expect from someone who doesn't actually know very much about dogs at all.

How can I be biased when I am not a rottie owner.

Please show me my misleading facts.

frog

26-09-2006, 05:22pm

It may not even be the parents who had left the door open. We don't know exactly what happened. How can you make sure that all people who have access to the pub will be fully aware of the threat that the 2 dangerous dogs on the roof would pose to people. Its unrealistic IMO. You just have to look at police dogs etc to see you can have well trained working dogs.
Sure. I assumed because the dogs were on the roof that only a handful of people would have access, and those people would most likely be aware of domestic arrangements- the baby's living space- I accept this may well not be the case.

I just find the 'accident' opinion a hard one to accept. If that were my baby I would most definitely hold someone responsible, most likely the person who left the door open, and also whoever left the baby unattended if it wasn't tucked up in a cot- could well be myself. To my mind, genuine accidents are very few and far between, and I would consider this due to someone's negligence.

icclebunny

26-09-2006, 06:17pm

My goodness, I go away for a few hours to feed the ducks with Mini IB and walk my dogs and you've run up another 5 pages without me?

Are they now saying the two incidents are unrelated?

lazymummy

26-09-2006, 06:53pm

You just have to look at police dogs etc to see you can have well trained working dogs.

I don't think your coming accross argumentative Frog, people will a

But police/prison dogs are NOT integrated with people! Yes, they are highly trained, but you don't treat them as a pet! I worked in a prison for years, and 2 things all staff were taught were: DON'T TOUCH THE DOGS and NEVER RUN-THEY WILL CHASE YOU!!!!

I agree, it is a terrible tragedy (however I don't think the 2 incidents are unrelated, but that's another thread!) and whatever breed of dog it was, it is awful. However, as an owner of 'dangerous' dogs, I get extremely tired of this scaremongering in the press. ATEOTD, a dog is an animal, you can't trust it 100%, and sadly, any breed of dog does have the potential ability to kill a small, vulnerable baby.

Pippin

27-09-2006, 09:02am

Sure. I assumed because the dogs were on the roof that only a handful of people would have access, and those people would most likely be aware of domestic arrangements- the baby's living space- I accept this may well not be the case.

I just find the 'accident' opinion a hard one to accept. If that were my baby I would most definitely hold someone responsible, most likely the person who left the door open, and also whoever left the baby unattended if it wasn't tucked up in a cot- could well be myself. To my mind, genuine accidents are very few and far between, and I would consider this due to someone's negligence.

In a pub there will always be a risk of a worker or person of the public leaving such doors open. To leave a door open is easy done and an accident IMO to keep two dogs which are obviously danger to the public is more of a crime IMO.